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May 12, 2013
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The Anna E by Eddie-Sand The Anna E by Eddie-Sand
The last month or so I have been playing around with the designs for a full size 4-4-0. Using this fictional locomotive as a test bed for ideas and concepts. In this (dated) sketch I have a Lempor ejector and an Altoona Firebox. I have a few concept drawing of this locomotive in mechanical form.

I like the Altoona firebox simply because it's low slung roof provided a funnel in which to rapidly move hot gasses forward. They where notorious for burning VERY hot. I have been debating trying to couple the Altoona Firebox with some thermic syphons. Perhaps the low slung firebox will help induce a circulation of water to compensate for the lack of heating surfaces.

I also wonder if the Lempor is being restricted by the screens and shape of the diamond stack, even though the diffuser empties directly into the crown of the stack.

I'm sure I can get a few ideas on this from some more knowledgeable folk.
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:icondinodanthetrainman:
dinodanthetrainman Featured By Owner Edited Dec 24, 2014  Hobbyist Digital Artist
I hate my computer today I had a long thing typed out to go here and it went to another page. I am too frustrated to type it all again.
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:iconsteamrailwaycompany:
SteamRailwayCompany Featured By Owner May 13, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
Interesting. :) I'd love to see this engine finished.
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:iconthiefy-lives:
Thiefy-Lives Featured By Owner May 13, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
......................wha?
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:iconeddie-sand:
Eddie-Sand Featured By Owner May 13, 2013
I kinda thought that would be your expression.

If I'm going to spend alot of my time on a thought experiment like this one, then I should give the darn locomotive a name worth the time and energy. Wait till you see the four pages of blueprints for this locomotive. ^^
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:iconthiefy-lives:
Thiefy-Lives Featured By Owner May 13, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Oh my. xD Okie dokie then!
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:iconeddie-sand:
Eddie-Sand Featured By Owner May 13, 2013
It's my thought experiment in the form of a locomotive. :-)
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:iconsteamby51:
steamby51 Featured By Owner May 13, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
Now is thought EXPERIMENT time!

[link]
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:icondinodanthetrainman:
dinodanthetrainman Featured By Owner May 13, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
If you do a straight stack give it a cap that way you will still have some ornamentation :)
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:iconeddie-sand:
Eddie-Sand Featured By Owner May 13, 2013
I do not think I will be going with a Strait stack.
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:icondinodanthetrainman:
dinodanthetrainman Featured By Owner May 13, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
I am glad to hear that:)
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:iconsampug394:
Sampug394 Featured By Owner May 13, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
Maybe its just me, but I figure if the fire is burning hot enough, you wouldn't really need spark screens in the first place because whatever little tidbits of fuel from combustion in the firebox would probably have been thoroughly burnt and eliminated already.

You might be better off with a straight smokestack. Shotgun variety or otherwise. The sonic speed of the exhaust probably wouldn't help the screen either. :noes:
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:iconeddie-sand:
Eddie-Sand Featured By Owner May 13, 2013
Well, the narrow confines of the Altoona style firebox while burning very hot unfortunately creates a lot of cinders due to the way that hot gasses are pulled through the flues. It was the reason the Altoona Firebox was abandoned eventually...flues clogged up almost within hours, or the grates with cover over with clinker, stiffing drought and rendering the abilities of the firebox useless. It's why the PRR kept putting stack screen on their 2-8-0s with this style of firebox.

With modifications provided by the copper siding, the firebox may burn hot enough to truly burn off a significant amount of the clanker and ash that will build up. But it still will not catch everything.

I have a locomotive designed to build steam rapidly, however I also have a firebox that if not delt with properly will build clanker rapidly as well. Still working the bugs out on this one. However, Alex has talked about self-cleaning smoke-boxes and I'm looking at different style grates to help with the removal of clinker and ash.
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:iconsteamby51:
steamby51 Featured By Owner May 12, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
Also something you should know, balanced compounds tend to have trouble due to length of valve ports and highly intermittent torque. Are you talking HP and LP cranks within the same phase, or are they 180 or 135 degrees apart?
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:iconeddie-sand:
Eddie-Sand Featured By Owner May 12, 2013
The HP and LP cranks are within the same phase and they are only 180 degrees apart. I based that design off a Michigan Central locomotive circa 1903. Only mine is 180 instead of 135. (I have a smaller locomotive)
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:iconsteamby51:
steamby51 Featured By Owner May 12, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
ah ok, well as long as they are not 0 degrees apart in the same phase like the epic fail that was the Lickey Banker XD
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:iconeddie-sand:
Eddie-Sand Featured By Owner May 12, 2013
Oh god, don't remind me of that catastrophic design.
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:iconsteamby51:
steamby51 Featured By Owner May 12, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
yes yes terrors beyond belief. It really made me wonder what credibility the designer even had....its like he was asleep at his draughting board
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:icongundammech101:
GundamMech101 Featured By Owner May 13, 2013
ok from the sound of it i hate to ask but being a steam locomotive enthusiast like you guys i have to ask, what is the Lickey Banker?
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:iconsteamby51:
steamby51 Featured By Owner May 13, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
the Lickey banker was a one off design by the Midland railways, 0-10-0 tender engine. Not very well made, it was four cylinder simplex with one valve handling two cylinders, one with valve ports that were far too long and restrictive.
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:icongundammech101:
GundamMech101 Featured By Owner May 13, 2013
oh god i feel sorry for the crew
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(1 Reply)
:iconsteamby51:
steamby51 Featured By Owner May 12, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
OK YOU KNOW WHAT. I took one look at the stack and I fucking hifived the computer screen.

THe diamond stack shape would not impinge upion the lempor, however screens would. the best way of doing it would be a self cleaning smokebox design with internal screens, remember a lempor or lemprex is hypersonic gas travel.

ALso; as you know lempors need tall stacks. the new Lemprex design under development by Nigel Day is built for short stack locomotives and allows for greater tolerances, it employs cyclonic flow of the gas. THe main feature of it is that the nozzles are spiraled as they travel up, while keeping the convergent-divergent design.
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:iconeddie-sand:
Eddie-Sand Featured By Owner May 12, 2013
I was more concerned about the spiral corkscrew which the diamond would have in order to deflect ash and other debris to the side of the stack, However a self cleaning smoke-box is defiantly an improvement idea. The cyclonic flow of the gas as it passes out the diffuser would perhaps be increased by the corkscrew of the ash deflector. Seems no one has actually placed a Lempor inside a diamond stack. Also note that I have some farly tall spiraled nozzles in that Kordina. Admittedly I am still learning about the Lempor and how it effects drought.

I'm hoping that the increased flow from the Lempor coupled with the high temperature burning firebox will create a boiler that will build up gobs of steam with little effort. I am debating drawing up another design featuring either thermic siphons or inverted water circulators running longitudinally across the firebox. The Altoona style firebox just burned hot, there was very little done with it and I guess you can say I'm "reinventing the wheel" by using that design.
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:iconsteamby51:
steamby51 Featured By Owner May 12, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
using the altoona box with modern materials is a great idea. increased pressure and HOT fire. hot fire is what you want for high power density. I reccomend using copper on the inside, as well as thermic syphons. This boiler will steam so readily it will run like a King class. GWR kings, with their inner copper bellpaire fireboxes, were known to even at absolute full speed (112 MPH) to lift all of their safeties as the steam generation rate was simply more than the engine could use. My theory is if you have this problem, simply design the engine to use more steam through her drive system, making far more power available to it.

Lempors are very tricky scientific business, it is best actually to follow formulas on them. THe kordina nozzles actually should not protrude into the petticoat like a kylpor, but be just below it, and the petticoat should be a bellcurve. It would seem to me that if the cyclonic flow patterns of the diamond stack were matched perfectly with the tangential speed of cyclonic rotating coming from the already built lemprex, you would have no conflicts whatsoever.
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:iconeddie-sand:
Eddie-Sand Featured By Owner May 12, 2013
Okay, so on the stack I should lower the kordina nozzles to just below the bellcurve of the petticoat and match the corkscrew of the diamond stack with the cyclonic flow coming from the lemprex.

I designed this locomotive essentially with a deckless cab (That firebox sits low, so crew room is not an issue.) This locomotive is going to have some moderate drive wheels, not too tall otherwise she may just be too slippery. They will also have a fairly long spacing between them. This will alow the majority of the boiler weight and firebox to be spread evenly across the drive wheels and frame. She may be have a tad bit more on axle loading, but she will grip those rails like her driver tires are made of rubber. The Altoona Boiler was not a radical departure from conventional design; it was really the grandfather for the Belpaire. In the Altoona we have a large grate surface area and the firebox is shaped to encourage hot gasses to flow forward across the heating space. What I am aiming for is in using using copper on the inside, as well as thermic syphons this Altoona will known to give off steam in large amounts with little effort.
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:iconsteamby51:
steamby51 Featured By Owner May 12, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
wait Im sorry, belay that last remark about lowering the nozzles, I was thinking about lemitaire without boundary layer suction. As for the cyclonic flow remarks, yes sir.


I would reccomend actually not straying from taller drivers, for it is not driver diameter that determines adhesion factor but the weight on them. Especially since this engine is a compound, you will want to make use of the tremendous power and economy available to you within speed, in fact I would go so far as to say very large drivers. There are reasons why you hardly ever see the compound steam principle most namely applied to small driving wheel slow speed freight engines, barring of course the Minnesotan three cylindered 0-8-0, which if I am not mistaken was a simple....
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:iconeddie-sand:
Eddie-Sand Featured By Owner May 12, 2013
Allright, so, keep the nozzles as is. Gotcha.

You make a good point about the drivers. If this boiler does what I'm hoping it would, I could make use of the large amount of steam within speed. Like you said, if she is creating too much steam, design her to utilize that steam rather then waste it. I just want a locomotive that can pull as well as be sprightly on her feet. I though of having her as a ten wheeler, but not only am I really wanting to keep her a 4-4-0, plus the adhesion factor would not change whether or not she is a 4-4-0 or 4-6-0, Only the axle loading. So a High drivered sprightly 4-4-0 that can pull a fare sized train at a good clip.
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:iconsteamby51:
steamby51 Featured By Owner May 12, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
That is correct. I would not worry abouyt spreading the weight in a 4-6-0 arrangement because of the inherent size this 4-4-0 would be, and that is simply not the staggering weight of a large 8 or ten coupled or large diesel. Make her as heavy as you want within reason and load the driving axles just as heavily, she is bound to fit on most railroad lines (SAVE PENN CENTRAL circa 1970 8D)

I would have to ask nigel day if a variable petticoat length system would work for the lempor. the NORD Baltic used it, creating a variable degree of fire draught at any given throttle setting at any time.
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